Posted on 139 Comments

The Maggie Finale, part 3

Sorry, everyone, I have been away for a few days and haven’t been able to engage here. I’ll be back shortly.

I see the last thread has got jammed up with comments, so let’s start a new one here.

Who wants to have some fun?
How about some of the deleted scenes? There’s stuff I wrote that never happened and I could post it here when I’m back at the office …

Other than that you can continue your awesome conversations in the comments below. I might be away, but I’ve read them all. I love those heartfelt letters! Love the music! There were a few comments that made me laugh so fucking hard too.

Back soon …

Okay:
Talk about perverted directions … Not all ideas are great ideas. here are some notes I had around the time of Secret Maggie (I’ve included them copypasta, spelling warts and all). Ginger in these notes is Keely before she had a name. I just used Ginger so I knew who I was talking about. Hartley Westlake was a possible weird Eyes Wide Shut angle if I ever wanted to go that way. For a time I speculated about Prof. Carmichael, Westlake, and Martin being into weird shit together and Maggie getting drawn into it but it was too Paul Schrader. I have more notes elsewhere in a dozen Maggie scrivener files that I’ll try and locate, though some might be lost. Stay tuned.

her videotape leagl idemnity. I maggie becker, am engaging in surrpetitious covert and very dirty behavior but I am doing so because it is part of the experience. This is Fake cheating. I want to experience The excitment of cheating but I swea I am not really cheating. I love you Max. repeats I live you, max. I do. I really do. Very much.
Cole hasnt come, he drags laptop over, shows her what hes done. Mad but truned on. Wants to see what people are saying. Worried about Max not being there. Gives him a handjob onto his belly. On camera. Come on his belly. He wraps a tshirt around her face, gets her to lick it off. he has heart to heart. Says whow would you feel if during the next ten months I didnt date? Meh.
Want to watch me jerk off?
She laughs hard.
What?
No, I dont want that.
maggie and max, conversation
Maggie conflicted about what to tell max. Should she tell him about the anal. Should she tell him about the pornhub channel.
did you do anything?
wants to be hnset but she lies. Enjoys the lie. Feels excited about it. Enjoying the thrill of cheating.
Maybe max is texting and she isnt responding. he ges to her dorm. then worried goes to Coles. he texts her and she says shes coming home from a bar or something but he sees her coming out of Samuelson. hShe says I ll maeet you in my room. he folllws her. imagines a limp, a tendrnss to her gait.
cole alludes to gift for the secret society, a plan
Maybe he doesnt want her to be with jay. Desnt like the idea. What does he think about learning that max watched jay and maggie. He thinks it weird. Wierder than when it was the threee of them in the secret society.
max and maggie sex, underwhelming but okay.
maggie runs into jays dad, maybve Jay’s dad is with hartley westlake? Too weird?
maggie and jay conversation
I did my drawings. I have two of you. I caught up with some other models. I’m done. Next time I draw you it will be for my own pleasure.
Wants to take her out but shes so busyand hes so busy
I think about you akl the time he said.
You do.
I think about your skin, uyour lips, the way you move.
maggie and jay sex
Maybe in the locker room shower.ndifference between him and Max.
dirty talk with Max, she’d like to sleep with a rofessor
starting to consider law school, maybe go away to harvard.
maybe she will find out her mother dabbled in art?
Maggie goes home to buy dress, in conservatory, gets yalkingto from dad, re:secutity footage missing. You know anythng about it? No.
Maggie will find out if antone is going to be at the cabin. What would she tell them. Some of her friends from school having a party for her. Mom is unsure.
maggi and max alone at cabin frst, she rejects him because she wanst to be horny when cole gets there.
maggie sees cole with ginger, whats she doing here, why’d he bring her?
ginger maggie cole and max hanging out, something fun. cold outside. they wull be inside. hot tub maybe but its been doen to death.
cole making out with ginger in front of maggie, mahgie hurt and jealous. maybe she runs off
max and ginger awkward but funny moment.
cole runs off to talk to maggie. I told you. whyd you bring your girlfriend? It hought. she s not my girlfriend. I didnt bring her for me. I brouhgt her for you. Shes yours. What do you men mine? Something every college girl should try. Get out fo here. Oh Im seriuous. no way cole. convinces her somehow.
maggie assering herself over ginger, muscling in. ginger is coy.
maggie goes down on cole, she joins in. ginger saying thigs like dont you just love his cock”? yeah. He has such a sexy big cock. cole eventually encourages ginger to kiss Maggie.
cole sets up trouble between max and maggie. wants ginger and max to fuck but it makes maggie so mad. ginger and cole make fun of her how its all for her, isnt she so selfish max?
daytime at cabin, do regular stuff, some drama emerges
ginger seduces maggie and she goes for it. max and cole watch. does maggie allude to them having to touch each other?
foursome, maggie allows max to be with ginger but it makes her bond with max weaker.
she encourages, with great and lustful intent, max to interact with cole in some way. Even cole is surpried how he feels about it. Now way kind of guy but hes so aroused he allows it to happen.
aftermath of max and cole being too inimate. strains their relationship. maggie feels guilt. they art ways here, head back to vermont. things are weird.
cole uploads to pornhub, secret society channel. hs maggie go throuhg it with him, reading comments. Compliments on Cole, yum and tes pleases. Some jokes about max’s penis, related to Cole’s

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139 thoughts on “The Maggie Finale, part 3

  1. List of questions grows. I'm watching a show with a bride groom dance which got me thinking about recent literature lol.I always assumed when you dropped the bombshell that The Style Council a song was for Max, was that deliberate or did Maggie pick that song for Max unintentionally?

  2. I've read at least a dozen stories since I finished reading Maggie but it's still at the forefront of my thoughts. Why can I think of nothing else?Found yet another song that reminded me of this story. Would be Max's mindset right when Maggie introduces him to Keely, lightly pushes him out the door and says “Well, Cole and I thought..”Take Her Place by Don Diablohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9oks_t_FZA

  3. As far as perverted directions go..I think you made the right choices. Too much of it and the story loses it's grounding, our connections to the characters. When that happens..well..maybe I would be able to think of other things.. Would have been very out of character for Maggie to do most of those things. And if she did anyway, I wouldn't have really cared about what happened to her or Max if he stayed with her anyway. I think the pornhub channel idea could have worked if Maggie hadn't fallen in love with Cole so quickly. Like if her seduction was dragged out over the course of another year or so. She fell way too fast for that kind of thing for Maggie to explain away as teasing and exploration. The idea is crazy hot, though.

  4. I don't think her going the route of pornhub would have been out of character for the curious but reckless Maggie of the early (shoot even late) chapters, but it's really good she didn't because it's hard to imagine that ending up well. Her job interviews might be a little awkward, “Hey don't I know you from somewhere?”I agree it would have been hot though, but probably too dark. I would still care about her, because she was young and stupid, learning the consequences of her sexual deviances, but the societal consequences would have been much harsher.

  5. I should say that Maggirs character early on was curious, reckless, and defiant, in my above statement.

  6. Well, as usual, I'm thinking of that situation from Max's POV. Can you imagine.. Maggie in love with both of them, dragging Max along, posting videos on the internet of her very intimate moments with Cole. Their love, immortalized for the world too see. Scrolling through comments, reading about how great they are together. Knowing she loved Cole the whole time.Maybe if she didn't fall in love so quickly, it could be a fun game. Could become a mechanism for Cole to keep getting Maggie to himself, so he could further develop the channel, maybe share in the ad revenue profits. But the way things played out in the actual story, it wouldn't be fun at all for Max if he stayed with her.. And it would be way, way too dark. Idea makes my stomach turn. Max's breaking point was seeing them together without him. He would have to be prepared for much worse than that and the story would lose some of it's rigidity.

  7. To be clear I don't think she would have been gung-ho about doing it, she would have been hesitant but appealing to the part of her that wants to be bad because she never knew what that was, and then Cole's strength and dominance would have fudged the rest of her mind up.

  8. Well I'd be the sick fuck rooting on Cole and Maggie in those comments so, maybe not the best source to discuss this with, lol! Just kidding around, what you bring up would be devastating for sure.But no, I'm still thinking about poor Ken, can you imagine seeing your sister doing it twice!? I made that joke before which is probsbly lame. Although I guess he'd be watching a different kind of porn to wind down given his orientation.

  9. @T(b=h) in the Bollywood movie “The Guru” which is set in NYC, Heather Graham is a porn actress engaged to a fireman who believes she is a second grade teacher. They have dinner one night with the man's parents and the parish priest. He keeps insisting to Heather “haven't we me before?”

  10. All are great choices..but brings up the question… are we all a bunch of backseat DJ's..personnaly i love music not just for listening but for attaching feelings to.It connects me to moments, people, or places.For instance when i think of max i think of Eiffel 65-“blue” mostly because when hes not with Maggie hes blue and when hes with maggie and cole hes still a bit blue when hes with maggie by heeself not so blue but…..nature of the cuck. I guess. He aint got nobody to listen either. He couldnt really talk to anyone until the ring pull.I mean he had to travel clear cross country just to pull a lever. Hmmm was that subliminal KT.

  11. All are great choices..but brings up the question… are we all a bunch of backseat DJ's..personnaly i love music not just for listening but for attaching feelings to.It connects me to moments, people, or places.For instance when i think of max i think of Eiffel 65-“blue” mostly because when hes not with Maggie hes blue and when hes with maggie and cole hes still a bit blue when hes with maggie by heeself not so blue but…..nature of the cuck. I guess. He aint got nobody to listen either. He couldnt really talk to anyone until the ring pull.I mean he had to travel clear cross country just to pull a lever. Hmmm was that subliminal KT.

  12. I am a backseat DJ, for sure. I fucking love music. It can take you to a place emotionally that words take much longer to take you to. Maybe that's why KT says she hates music! (JK, pretty sure she was kidding)Pretty sure it varies from person to person, but “eargasms” are real and I feel them constantly when I listen to music. I can't NOT listen to music, it's too good.I love Blue by Eiffel 65. Great song.

  13. @2b2h It's a personal thing. Everyone has their limits, I'm not in a position to say what is going too far and what isn't. When Max noticed Ken watching..I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping for the story to take on an even more taboo turn of events. But being an Amazon story, I knew it wouldn't. Him being gay is honestly a convenience. For me personally, that situation (pornhub channel) would be so severe that when Max inevitably stays with her anyway, he would become unrelatable to me. Then I'd lose interest and probably wouldn't be here right now. I'd buy these stories anyway — they'd be on my kindle, but they wouldn't stick with me like they have. They'd be fun little stories that became way too fictional for me to truly enjoy, like almost everything else in the genre.This story is special because it I do find it believable. I found Max to be a coward, but not so much so that I didn't understand his point of view. And there are those who think otherwise; who think his stance was impossible. And I could relate to that sentiment. Personally, the “perverted directions” that actually made the final cut would do me in. No way I'd sit idly by and allow that to happen or I'd bolt. And this is coming from a kinky motherfucker. But love is a powerful thing and can overcome a lot, so I can see why he would allow it.So I want both directions. I want to read and understand why you would be okay with that kind of thing. Is it based around love? Do you think Max didn't deserve Maggie? Do you just find those circumstances super hot, with little consideration for the characters' feelings and futures?I found that the results speak for themselves. I think Max has found himself in a much stronger relationship with a much stronger foundation and that Maggie/Cole are facing a much rockier future. Maggie with her insecurities with her parents and her prolonged exposure to them — Cole with his player mentality and his wife who he himself crafted into the type of girl to embrace cheating because it's a lot of fun. Both expecting their partner to be faithful, with their past suggesting the other thing, if history is ever doomed to repeat itself.Do you disagree? I don't think you're a sick fuck for rooting for Cole and I'd like to get to the core of your opinion. Why do you think Cole deserved Maggie?

  14. Sorry for the wall of text..started writing then couldn't stop.

  15. Well, fuck sleep I guess since my neighbors are fresh out of college and it's st patty's day …Don't be mistaken by my preferences, they are not guided primarily by ought-to-be's, as much as it probably should be. I wanted Cole and Maggie to be together because it seemed like that's what they both ultimately wanted. And it was just hot, to be honest. It was probably so hot because of that piece (that they liked each other so much). That passion bleeds through. And yeah, for whatever reason, having this other man stuck in the middle of this, Max, makes the story bigger, the stakes higher, their passion together more pronounced. What might be weirder is as I said I relate more to Max … I don't know why I root for Cole when I personally like Maggie … I liked Cole because I saw he had some good traits that made him a non-complete-asshole, but in the process there's no question I'm overlooking a lot. Still, as we've gone over plenty, no one was perfect in this story.I don't know if either of the couple's in this story will have long term success in their relationships, and I love that as a creative choice. Fuck happily after, at least in a cut and dry sense. It makes me feel more empty to believe everything fell into place for everyone. I feel my intelligence insulted in that situation. Make me believe what I just got done spending a year obsessing over. I think she accomplished that beautifully.Like you mentioned, believability matters and I guess we all have different thresholds or points where we are willing to over look extreme circumstances. But I love KT's ability to constantly write fantastical stories within arms reach of a reality I can understand.

  16. Well, KT somehow managed to give you the ambiguous ending you wanted while giving me my happily ever after for Max. Not sure how that's possible.Honestly I figured it was love and passion that made you root for Cole.. It's the only thing that can make what they did to Max 'okay'. As good a reason as any. And yeah, it was hot.”Having this other man stuck in the middle of this makes their passion together more pronounced”Yeah, it does. And just like too much 'perverted direction' can cause the story to lose some rigidity, so too can the boyfriend/husband/fiance watching and doing nothing for too long cause the same. This story got dangerous close to being that for me. But the closer the better. It does illustrate a lot about what it means for them to be together because Maggie loved Max so much that she very nearly married him, very young and smart enough to know that it probably wasn't a great idea. And to long for someone so much that you'd be willing to risk that kind of relationship is definitely romantic in it's own way.But for lack of a better explanation, Maggie's love for both of them was close to equal, maybe Cole had a small lead. But it would just be impossible for me to drag someone that I love that much through hell like that and that's why I don't like her. I think it's been long enough for my opinion of her to be “settled” by now and not just be a heat of the moment type of opinion.And it's not because I don't think she doesn't deserve to be her happiest with Cole, if that's what it takes. It's just that sometime's there's love in mercy and Maggie has no mercy.

  17. Kinda went off on a tangent there..The story just becomes too real for me.. I really need to work on being able to take a step back and just enjoy it for the fiction that it is. There was one point after one of the parts of this story where I couldn't comment anymore. My stomach was literally churning as I tried to convince you guys that Cole's motives might not be what he says.. It's so unhealthy lol

  18. There's lots of things we could talk about with what you mentioned above, but I want to make my opinion on the ending better understood. A lot of what needs to be made of the ending has already been wonderfully stated by WA, John, and JL, so I hadn't really elaborated on my specific thoughts, because they didn't really stray that far away from what has been said. The truth is I did think the ending felt good, and that is really how I should define the ending. If we want to define the ending being good based on whether the people everyone ended up with will be their significant others in perpetuity, that's where I'm skeptical. Not that anyone probably didn't see that anyways, but I think there are really concrete reasons to think things are nice now, and may always be, but there could be some heart ache in their future. Who knows if that future heart would really make the ending bad either.Max and Keely-Keely seems truly emotionally supportive and a good fit for Max. They do truly seem to share an amazing bond in the few interactions we see of there's. That being said, there was too much involvement with Maggie and Cole in their lives all the way up to the end this story, not to feel like the fun of Max and Keely together could possibly fade if Maggie and Cole separated from them long-term. Not that a full separation of those two from Max and Keely's life will likely happen anyways, but we are not that far removed at the end of the story from an intense emotional bond between Max and Maggie. I know the honeymoon situation is probably a special circumstance in terms of how emotional Max might have been in the previous two years with Maggie. What we see of Max's feelings about Maggie int he epilogues are probably just the results of very specific and unavoidable feelings given the extenuating circumstances of those moments, but right now it's difficult to know if that powerful feeling will ever go away. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any indication that the bond between the four will ever sever, even in THAT way. The history in this story demonstrates that Max's emotional distress at not having Maggie's most passionate love persists, but the ending of the story seems to indicate that he's on his way to permanently getting over her.Maggie and Cole – This one I don't think anyone disagrees with, it seems like Cole bought into the life Maggie's father had for him, which had to knock Maggie's appreciation for Cole down a few pegs. It seemed to for Max when he was confronted with this choice and he almost went for it. That could become a source of resentment for Maggie in the future, especially if the father and him get into a fight about Oxbow, and Maggie realizes that her dominant Cole is still subordinate to the same man she is. Like WA said, there's nothing wrong with the route Maggie went (and I'll add Cole), but it's a lot easier of a path than the one paved by Max. Which has to make Maggie respect Max a little bit more right? Maybe not now, but in the future. Cole undeniably had to have worked hard to get where he was, but grounds were laid for him.I guess what would make the ending bad is if both Maggie and Max eventually realize they SHOULD have been marrying each other, or that in the future they fuck up in a state of weakness and get emotionally involved with each other again when they really shouldn't have.

  19. I only disliked Cole when it was clear he was trying to push Max out, and combined with the way he talked about him, I grew to hate him for a while. But I didn’t for most of the story, and thought he was great in this chapter. I didn’t really get any sense of “I won, you lost” from him, I just saw a guy in love and happy he had his friend in his life.Actually I had the bigger problem with Maggie in this chapter, some of the things she said about and to Max rubbed me the wrong way. Some of that was KT making a point I think, and also I do think Maggie was attempting in her way to push Max towards the final decision she knew he needed to make, but she was still quite harsh at times.Part of that is why I was a little frustrated with Max in this chapter, seeing he was with a girl who was beautiful, funny, smart, and oh…utterly devoted to him, and it still felt at times like he wasn’t going to get there. But he does on that balcony…that question to Keely might as well have been worded “You’re not another Maggie, are you?”As for the future, I thought about it a lot. No couples are guaranteed, but I think these two are still together 10 years down the road. Keely and Max are rock solid; nice house somewhere in CT or NJ with their kids, probably the kind of couple who embarasses their kids with their displays of affection. I think Cole and Maggie are still together too, but maybe some of those tensions under the surface have risen a bit. Hopefully not though.

  20. TBTH…I guess I don’t have that same worry about Max and Keely, I think they’ve built a very distinct life from Maggie and Cole. Remember, it had been 8 months since the couples were together like they were in Tahiti, and I doubt it impacted Keely and Max’s life too much. I’m sure they have experiences wholly distinct from Cole and Maggie…the “ring fuck up” coming to mind. When they’re together, Max seems completely into her, not like he’s pining for Maggie when they’re having sex. I suspect as time goes on that just becomes more and more apparent. Cole and Maggie will always be there, but I suspect their “playing” time would be very limited…a special thing that excites all of them a few times a year. But I think Max and Keely will be fine with that, and that won’t diminish their spark.

  21. Good points, I agree with all of them. It's unclear how important Cole and Maggie are to Max's relationship with Keely. The powerful feeling you talked about is right too.. It's definitely still there and it being like 6.5 years later is a little alarming. We don't really know how intense the feeling was though. I agree that it seems like he's gradually getting over her.Max's ambition is puzzling to me with how it relates to Maggie. Maggie was attracted to Cole because he was sexually dominant — he took what he wanted and didn't care about the consequences. He took control of everything. It's weird because although Max wasn't that way in bed, he was that way in every other facet of life. He took control of his life, carved out a path of his own like you said. Turned down Martin's free pass to a successful life because he preferred to find his own success and then found it. Surely, if he's capable of that, he can adjust himself in the bedroom and be a little kinkier if that was to her liking.I guess what I'm getting at is that in the future, I believe Maggie is going to be the one with regrets. And I worry how that would affect her relationship with Cole. Max won't have regrets like that. He will likely feel sorrow over how things played out, but that's it. When people say time heals all wounds, they're usually talking about the kind of things that happened to Max. Regretting doing something or not doing something usually sticks with you much longer. And the choice to not be with Max wasn't Max's choice to regret.

  22. @ JL with regards to Max and Keely – like I said, that's probably the correct take, and even said that the specific circumstance of the wedding/honeymoon that was at one time meant for Maggie and Max would naturally draw out emotions even if you were “over” the person. The fact is though, at the wedding and in Tahiti Max talks about emotional hurt in-the-moment about Maggie, with Keely. We can talk about getting over someone when they are distant even for months at a time, but when all we see is evidence that when Max and Maggie are together, he gets in a state of emotional distress, what conclusion can we really reach with confidence? Then add the fact that the foursome will likely never be apart for too long, and who knows what the future brings, is all I'm saying.

  23. TBTH…I can see those concerns. As well as the idea that in those moments he turns to Keely and he needs her, but that does that mean he loves Keely or is it she just takes his pain away in that moment.But I think it’s big that he can talk to Keely about all those complicated emotions, and that she won’t let him go into his introverted shell. They don’t have any secrets, she knows what he’s thinking, and that’s important.I don’t think Maggie would get between them because they won’t let her. And I do think this was a blip in time, and for the most part Max is utterly devoted and in love with her as well. I think that only grows stronger after the events of the wedding and honeymoon.

  24. Just wanna point this out.. JL23 when you say Max might as well have asked “You're not another Maggie are you?” you're talking about when he asks her “You serious you want to be pregnant?”I agree entirely with that. And maybe it's just a KTism but two paragraphs after she answers “Fuck yes” Max smiles and refers to her as “his Keely.” That's kind of KT's way of saying “this is the real deal.”

  25. Thanks JL, all great points, and I don't think you would necessarily disagree with my next point, which ties to DW's concerns, but what you talk about with regards to Keely is part of the reason I have my doubts at Max and Keely's longevity. Keely is supportive now, but what happens when everyone meets again? I'll try to phrase it in a positive spin, because my posts all seem laced with pessimism lol. I hope Max demonstrates no distress next time they all meet. Otherwise, it's not fair to Keely.

  26. No, I was talking about his question right before that: “There’s nothing you’re missing with me, is there?” Her answer to that I think is what prompts the pregnancy question, which I agree is KT saying “Max is fully committed to Keely now.”

  27. Oh ok, that makes more sense. Although they kinda carry the same sentiment, I think.

  28. Not gonna lie 2b2h, had a good chuckle over your concern for Keely. It's justified of course but where was that empathy for Max, dude?? We're talking about a little distress too LOLHonestly I think we just have to trust that Max won't fuck it up. Personally I don't think he will.

  29. WA – you apparently think I don't have any empathy for Max?You haven't been paying attention to what I say well enough then.

  30. Yeah, I think the whole point of that final passage is Max’s final realization that he has to completely let Maggie go and be with “his Keely”

  31. No, I pay attention to what you say, just having a laugh.

  32. Fair enough, I just want to make it clear, you and JL cover Max's perspective and what we should feel for him rather extensively. Not much word for me to say hedgewise other than some cursory “yeah I agrees” or one-liners when you guys cover that base. So in fairness to myself, I think constantly talking about empathy for Max would bore the shit out of me. Especially when it's only one aspect of the story.

  33. It's also the most controversial and interesting topic, IMO.

  34. TBTH…I agree if Max continued to think of “what he lost” in those moments, it would be a problem. And Keely would not like it if it continued well into the future. But again, my reading of Max on the balcony is he is someone who has let Maggie go in that way.I also think WA brought up a good little thing I missed below. Twice he refers to her as “his Keely”…maybe he used that phrase before, but for me that’s another big sign that Max is all in on his Irish lass.

  35. WA – Big Lebowski voice – well that's just, like, your opinion, man.JL and WA – I see the KT kiss of death (like when wr talking about characters over emphasizing what their point is, like “I REALLY love you, Max”) when I see 'my (insert name)' because Maggie did that too for much of the story for Max.Kidding of course …

  36. Unable to make a full comment today but briefly:The quad story is not over.There will be ups and downs, regrets and realities,Sex,hot sex, hotter sex and some scorn. Lives will diverge and return. Kids will be born grow up and leave home. The story continues..We just will miss being apart of it.

  37. Well those were Maggie's words…

  38. While I generally agree with WA on the balance of virtue among the characters, I tend to think that the reason this story has generated so much discussion is that it is plausible after all. Many of us have gone through all or some of the events depicted by kt in this saga. The Nia/Rocco and Jess/Tyler not so much, with one or two unfortunate exceptions among this crew. And if we have not gone through it then our children have.Carol was on TV today, hawking her newest book about “tribal” conflict in America. She writes under the nom de plume, Amy Chua (Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom). She vehemently denied that she was the model for Carol, but doesn't deny that things turned out exactly as she had planned for Maggie -;) OK, that didn't really happen but it would have been hilarious if it did. I have a feeling Ms. Chua would have been able to hold it together even/especially (!) if she was a devotee of kt's Maggie saga.

  39. Ha, don’t do that to me, TBTH. Max and Keely will be married for 50 years and have 6 kids and 18 grandchildren…I refuse to believe anything otherwise. 🙂

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