215 thoughts on “Maggie Finale, part 2

  1. I can see those points Wess…I excuse some of it because they're young and don't quite understand these complicated feelings. And its a complicated swirl of emotions that lead them to do what they do, some of them were for Max, and some of them were selfish too no doubt. There wasn't a perfect answer here I think, they did the best they could but they're human.On Keely, since we don't really see her until the end, we don't have the history with her, and her history with Max, that we do with the other characters. Their love didn't blossom and grow before our eyes, so we're asked to accept some fundamentals about their relationship. Makes me want that Keely and Max flashback even more…maybe as an “Easter egg” in the next story…Easter is coming up after all.On Cole, my relationship with him…its complicated. I agree with you at the end…maybe the noble thing to do was for him to walk away, but how many of us could say we'd actually do that?

  2. DW, I am so glad to see your comments! I should have known you were right there with us (at least reading-wise) this whole time. I only want to say that I am glad someone else sees the flaws in the ending with Max and Keely and their long-term future. I haven't been able to really dig deep into what the comments others have made about this topic, and I don't disagree with their long-term possibility, but given the events of the extremely recent past (that is before Max and Keely had their series ending conversation) there really was nothing to prove that both of them were ready to truly commit to one another exclusively. Yeah, right now, and I believe that it is absolutely possible that they could, but it's too soon to tell. And, given the evidence and history, I have my doubts.I'm glad KT did that too, by the way (ending it at Maggie and Cole's honeymoon), because it's satisfying to only a point. Then I have to turn around and think, “hey, wait a minute…”

  3. Donkatsu: Interesting about Cole. Did he get everything with no consequences? I suppose he did. He got Maggie, he saved his relationship with Max, he’s running in the Becker’s world which is exciting. Hey, that happens in life sometimes.But I would suggest his consequences may be down the road. He’s kind of “stuck” at Oxbow now. I think it’s safe to say that Max is going on to have a really successful career on Wall St…he’s going to make a lot of money, and it’s all on his own. Cole will have access to money, but it won’t really be his. And he’s going to see up close just how good Max has it. How’s that make him feel 10-15 years down the road? How’s it make Maggie feel? Not saying any of this would happen, or that I’d wish for it to (I wouldn’t)…but maybe that’s his consequence.

  4. @ JL23 One issue that I see with the first thing you said (about them not understanding their feelings) is that is you're sort of excluding the fact that Cole was in love with Maggie. He was, I don't doubt it. But if you're accepting that he was, you also have to accept that some things that Maggie and Cole chose to do cannot be written off as just inexperience and were done knowingly and intentionally, likely to the detriment of Max's development (imo). It's selectively choosing to accept something as a hard truth, that something often being just as likely to be a wrong choice because of inexperience, but not other things. I realize you're not saying they did the right thing, only that you're excusing what they chose to do. But I wanted to say that anyway.Cole's situation is complicated. Maybe there is no situation where he doesn't come out smelling like dog shit because if he loves Maggie then you gotta go after Maggie. But I think theres a scenario where he doesn't manipulate Max into thinking it's his fault.

  5. Also, Cole would be stuck at Oxbow and with Carol anyway. Not really a punishment, just baggage. Donkatsu is right, I think. He violated the bro code and got off scot-free. That's because of the kindness of Max.

  6. @WA I see what you’re saying. For me, I don’t think there was a right, or perfect answer on what to do if you’re Maggie and Cole. I’m sure they consciously made some decisions on what to do about Max, but I guess I don’t necessarily see that as bad. And whether it was worse for Max is ultimately everyone’s personal opinion. I don’t think so, but I understand the reasons why you think it was.Was Cole manipulating Max at times? Yes…but I think in ways they were all manipulating each other at various points. No one is innocent there IMO.

  7. @DW- during the read i grew to not like Cole very mucb. Then i started not liking maggie then i lost tespect for Max at different points. So i really had to sort out a few things for myself. The firat if which was this wasnt Coles game. Cole went into this reluctantly. He did his due diligence. Maggie openned up the can of worm/s first with her dream lover named cole and the blow job on the beach. The first crack appears. Once he saw max on board with what was happening. It was game on. Anything he did after that was to be with maggie more ans more. Which means less and less for max. So i coukdnt really blame cole, i couldnt figuire Maggie out because she pushed back to make sure was included and coniltinued to profess hsr love for him.Max itked me for not being more confrontational.With maggie playing both sides i couldnt figuire out who she was gonna choose so i resigned to hoping it was the one she loved most and loved her back. Yea i still feel they Mags and cole strung Max along for a few years unwilling to rip the off the bandaid as it were. Because they both loved him they coukdnt bave him lurking in thr shadows (or closet) all hurt, sad and lonely.I woukd have liked to have been a fly on ths wall when maggie breaks the news to max she was gonna marry cole. Or cole tells max hes gonna propose. Dobyou think he did it in front of max. They all go out for dinner together and cole gets on his knee.The food thing is he has a gurl who will be faithful to him now. Both of them, all of them.

  8. That makes sense, I see where you're coming from. But just for clarity, I think there was a right answer. Come clean, the earliest as possible because the worst thing you can do to someone is waste their time (short of murdering them). That's just my opinion. I won't drag on about this anymore, that was more for the newcomers sake than yours. No one is innocent but I'd say Max is the least guilty. I think Max visiting Ken in secret and being in the closet pales in comparison to what Cole did.

  9. @WA. @JL You are right that Cole will pay a price for all of this, as he must toe the Becker family line and bow obsequiously to Martin and Carol, unless . . . . he is such a good player that he enlists Carol on his side against Martin.Somewhere in between Cole and Tyler lies Casanova – not a big-dicked meathead like Tyler who just wants to take over someone else's love and life, and not a master player like Cole, who sees an objective worth sacrificing the game for. The Casanova wants to take someone's love away for a while, especially from his friends. He thinks he leaves the girl with a smile and fond memories and figures (1) he has shown himself to be the better man than the cuckold; and (2) enjoys the cuckold's anguish and torment at least a little bit, maybe a lot, and expects to interact with him socially in the future, adding a certain frisson to those future gatherings. Cole has at least a little of that in him, his conversations with Maggie showed that.In my experience, expecting the woman or girl, as with Maggie, to stand up for the existing relationship is silly. Some girls like to see their men fight it out, even after they are “committed” and lots of men will not take no for an answer from a woman. It is the man's job to lay down the law, Bro Code or no. I speak from personal experience. Max is not capable of doing that with Cole or with anyone else who might be a credible rival. kt understood that about Max and engineered a second best solution for him and Keely, who has apparently been pumped and dumped enough in her short life to have acquired some wisdom on the subject.

  10. Also the thoughts on Max and the band-aid scenario, I’m thinking back to my thoughts on Geoff…and it was the opposite to how I feel about Max. But I think that’s because Geoff was a 35-year old man who had lived life, and was dealing with the potential of a horrible truth. He needed to rip the “band-aid” off and find his way on his own, and he was mature and experienced enough to do so. But that was a really painful journey.Max is still just a kid, I don’t know if he has the maturity and experience to do what Geoff does, what Geoff goes through. I really think it breaks him for a long time. The other way wasn’t perfect, but I still say it was the right one for Max.

  11. To be fair, Max was with Keely for a few years before Cole/Maggie got married. So thankfully he didn't have to confront shit like that. Can you imagine, though? Holy shit..

  12. Ahh, I think they're a little more mature than you think. Max being who he is, he would have forgiven them and they would have begged him to. With time, of course. The things that make them friends would still be there. And I think in that scenario, we might have seen real, proper remorse from Cole for how things went down. Maybe in that scenario he becomes human to me and I can forgive him. And then..a few years later after Max had his fun with Marta and maybe a few other girls, our duo can introduce him to Keely.

  13. That's what I'm missing! Remorse! I know they all told their truths at the lodge but I got very little in the way of remorse or regret from Maggie and Cole. I want to feel their pain and sadness. I felt so much of it from Max.OK. I feel better. I guess I should go back to my job now.

  14. @Wess…you may be my new favorite on this blog..and i have many! Exactly>>You said—“Also not a Cole fan but I think KT wants us to like him. I think KT likes him (heh, heh), but he broke the always somewhat flexible “Bro Code”. I can get around that. Stealing your best friend's fiance? Nope. He's an asshole. ” I'm sorry I don't think after the last book when he kicked Max from the room while he & Maggie got busy….I was already not a fan, but I didn't have hatred..after that line I had hatred! Sorry KT…DW

  15. @WorldsApart…I think Max agreed to the hotel room because Cole (the master manipulator) led him to believe this was another fantasy of Maggies. I mean was it? or was that video of Cole coercing her his fantasy? Was this a cruel joke of haha i got your girl?

  16. Hi TBTH you know I am always close by ;)As for Mad & Keely, as in true KT form we don't actually know how that all came about..so it's not really fair to say it was ok to marry Cole & Maggie since Max & Keely were already together for 2 plus years…I hope for Keely sake Max wasn't forced into a love he doesn't want nor fully commit to…I mean seriously as a woman, is Keely really ok with his love for Maggie? AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY WOULD HE LET HER SLEEP WITH COLE??? And Maggie for that matter?Ok I have to take a break :)DW

  17. @WA I can see that line of reasoning. Perhaps Max would have forgiven them and came back to them on his own. Knowing Max I’m sure he would have. Like I said, there’s no perfect answer, no way not to have Max go through pain and loss. On Cole/Maggie and remorse, I would offer than we’re not privy to it as we don’t see that portion. When we pick it up 6 years later, they’re happy cause they’re getting married, and Max is in a pretty good place with a great woman he loves. If we saw them at Harvard, especially pre Keely, I suspect we would see quite a bit of that. But we come back at a happy moment. Maybe I’m excusing them with that, though. Again I don’t know, everyone will see it a little differently.

  18. Yeah, it wasn't a fantasy of Maggie's. Her reaction and the fact that she chose Cole and not Max (knowing their principles) is evidence of that, at least. I know why he allowed it to happen. It's just that there's no scenario where Max wins there. I get that he has hangups with Maggie and can't seem to express himself to her and doesn't want to lose her so he goes along with her decision making, but why did those hangups extent to Cole? Privately?Was that situation really acceptable to Max? Him assuming that Cole was right and she wanted to cheat. Sitting there in the closet, watching it happen and watching her not care about doing it? How in the world did he agree to that when THAT is the best case scenario? That's not at all what he wanted, yet, in private conversation with Cole, he allowed himself to be tricked into a no win situation. Just Cole, probably sweaty from lacrosse practice, calling him “bro”. That was enough? Really? That's when I was like..Alright dude, you lost me. I was with you for a while but holy fuck. Say anything.

  19. Yea, like I said I wish we saw more of Max and Keely's early days. But we see Max's struggle with it. I think when we pick it up, he is truly in love with Keely, but there is still that part of him mourning the loss of Maggie. But I think he gets there fully in the end. I don't see it as a love forced on him. Maggie and Cole just made the introduction, what Keely and Max have they built themselves. If he wasn't into Keely, if she didn't do so much for him, he wouldn't still have been with her at this point. You can see when he's with her alone…that relationship is not one he doesn't really want, where he's just going through the motions. I agree with you on Keely, but there is evidence she's at least a little concerned. The scene towards the end where Maggie asks her to leave her alone with Max, you see concern. As KT said in an earlier post to my question on that…Keely is young and understands heartbreak. She's willing to help Max and wait for him to get there fully on his own because she's in love with him and he's worth the wait. But if he was still pining for Maggie a few more years down the road, I don't think she would stand for it.On Keely with Cole…Max is a cuckold, he's excited by seeing a woman he loves be taken by the “better” lover. That hasn't changed. But he's 27 now, older and more mature, and more secure in Keely's love for him. He knows she's not leaving him for Cole, and Cole has Maggie so he's not going to try and take Keely. Having her sleep with Cole once in a while is just a fun game.With Maggie, KT talked about that in a post. If it was totally up to her, Cole probably wouldn't be sleeping with Keely. But she allows it because she loves Max and knows he's into it, and isn't really threatened by Keely…she knows she's in love with Max. Plus it allows her to safely explore some of her other kinks.

  20. Wouldn't that be something, though, if Cole tried to steal Keely? I'd come to this board fuming and everyone would start telling me how much Cole loves Max. Hahahaha…Oh Max, I'm so sorry. Feels good to laugh about it.

  21. My take on Max and Keely's early days: Maggie spent a lot of time with Keely, and heard a lot about her love life. She knew Keely dated “assholes” and was tired of them. She wanted to meet a nice guy, a guy who would be there for her. So they make the intro to Max.Max likely knew exactly what they were doing and fought it initially. Keely probably saw he was still in love with Maggie. But they still hit it off initially, so both said why not and dated without any pressure for a while…maybe just hung out together as friends, away from Cole and Maggie. Over time, Max began to see how much Keely got him, how she was devoted to him and making him happy. He fell in love with the girl Keely was, and needed her in his life. But he couldn't quite shake the sense of loss over Maggie. For Keely, she probably quickly saw the Max we do and fell in love. She knew Maggie loomed in the background, but she saw how Max was with her when it was just them. So she then set about winning him over completely. She took the risk that Max could break her heart.

  22. @WA if Cole ever tried to steal Keely, he is a total asshole and every bad thing anyone has ever said about him is justified. I certainly wouldn't even attempt to defend him then.

  23. Also on Maggie with Keely and Cole, notice Maggie remains in control of that at all times. She stops it before Cole comes. She tells Keely “don't you think you've had your fun now?” When her husband comes, its inside her and Max and Keely get to be the creampie cuckolds. Translation: I'm in charge here, at all times. She'll let her Maxy have his fun and get his rocks off, but she won't let it get past a certain point.

  24. Lol…If I was Cole, I’d be more worried about Maggie than Max if he ever did go after Keely. She would literally cut his nuts off then.

  25. Haha, yeah she would. As for their foursome, I did notice the trepidation that you talked about from Keely. But other that, none of my spidey senses were alarmed at what was happening. That scene seemed more like suitable closure for Max's relationship with Maggie (for me, at least). It showed that they've moved on enough to view sex as just as a good time. Even Keely with Cole — just didn't bother me. Keely had proved to me at that point that she was devoted to Max, something Maggie never quite did. She did at first but then proved that her words carry less meaning than I'd like. Then their private conversation after they left, showed me that they're just friends. Didn't read into more than that. As far as the trepidation, given where Max started, he's on the path to be free of Maggie. I have no reason to think Keely and Max can't go the distance. And Keely is an angel for riding the storm.

  26. Completely agree WA, it’s a fun game for all of them now. And they are all very conscious of making sure everyone is good with what’s happening. No reason to be worried. And I get the sense this is something they only do every once in awhile. I don’t think they’re doing this every weekend. Most of the time they’re just hanging out together like any other couples who are great friends do.

  27. Cole is not the remorsing type, he's a “playa.” He's still playing, but in a different game, with the Beckers and even with Maggie. He was firmly set on taking Maggie away from Max the minute Max let him in the door as the “safe” alternative to Jay. His interior dialogues tell us that unequivocally. That said, I agree with kt and the rest who see that Max could never hold on to Maggie once the Jay thing happened and Maggie learned that longer, wider, bolder, and higher T is better.If Max and Keely move away to raise their smaragdine-eyed children in the countryside or if Keely tires of Cole, will he pick up another gal for the occasional romp? Almost certainly, and almost certainly the wife or SO of a friend. That's who Cole is.

  28. yea gotta say I'm with WA on this I wished they would have ripped the band aid off. I think that as friends do they'd move apart but I think over time they'd come back together again, as friends do. we know max and Cole are best buds but there has to be others not as best but at least buds. Max could hang with the xbox crowd for a time. They would occasionally bump into one another on campus at least until grad. I think that those moments would be healing times. bringing them back together. unless max specifically makes Maggie and Cole sneak up on him.maybe Maggie donates some pussy for a pity party a couple of times. the threesome takes place but with an understanding of whose who.Was happy for Max to have an understanding, smoking hot rebounder. I think Keely wont have to wait long for the whole max/Maggie thing to fall away. When not around Maggie Max will be very content and happy every time they are together he will have to keep growing a thicker and thicker hide. At the honeymoon the wounds are still healing the scabs are gone but the pink flesh is still tender. Time heals all he'll get over Maggie and probably is most of the way there by the wedding.

  29. Since I enjoy sharing tears with you guys, a couple songs that were personally affected by this story. I've already shared one song by this artist, but this song (which is actually about the forbidden romance of homosexuality and trying to get married in anti-gay cultures) felt like it could be from Maggie's perspectives.A couple key lines -“Petrol blues” Cole's eyes … KT likes to refer to eyes by their colors, his “blues” are his blue eyes. The lyrics probably has nothing to do with that but, yeah.”saut dans le vide” means 'into the void' in French. I'm about to write a little blurb on the void left when thinking about the meaning of love from Maggie.”I've found a love to love like no other can” How many love stories start like Maggie and Cole's?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmrYisoxXAFinally, after Uncovering Maggie, I kind of thought that Ken was going to have to pick up the pieces from Maggie's situation, and this song came to mind from it. It's about addiction, I believe, but it produces the requisite emotion of trying to help your sister through her trauma.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-crVagUok

  30. Just to clarify, Cole initially just intended to be a Casanova and take Maggie for a while. As kt and others noted, Cole did not change his objective to permanent displacement of Max until he went to RI (and especially after Carol gave Cole a tour of the playroom). It takes two to tango and Cole and Maggie started pumping each other up regarding the nature of their relationship (hey, get your minds out of the gutter, just because it's erotica doesn't mean everything is sexual, or maybe it does). As someone noted in this or another Maggie thread quoting Oscar Wilde: “Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.” That works pretty well here.

  31. In the interest of efficiency for me, I'm honestly narrowly focusing on the specific thoughts I had, which ignores the unbelievable amount of thought others had in this thread. Keep it up everyone!Just to be clear as I preface this thought, I don't REALLY know shit about Nietzsche's philosophy. I have ideas from people who talk about his philosophy, but I know he was a 'moral nihilist' as you say and definitely saw that relevance in the story as Maggie looks off to Cole's room walls about to engage in 'practice.'My original thought is the 'abyss' that is created when looking into Maggie's eyes, and I guess it ultimately does relate to perspectivism. That's more accurate than my original thought. Max, as he looks on to Cole and Maggie at the lodge, ends up staring into Maggie's eyes for much of their romp. The 'abyss' feeling is the state that I felt when trying to think about what her smile and rapt eye-contact meant. Mostly, it was the state of feeling like I understood what that meant before that moment, a love that was meant exclusively for Max. That genuine eye contact and smile signified a bond that no one else shared. In this moment, to have that same emotional connection be redefined as he watched Maggie express her love for Cole, created that pit of the stomach ache that I talked about yesterday, the feeling of being 'unsettled.'It relates to perspectivism though I suppose, doesn't it? Max can't know what Maggie really feels because he isn't her, and what's worse, is Maggie might not fully know either. She was looking back with a love she felt for Max, but possibly didn't realize that it was beginning to pale in comparison to the one growing with Cole. Her inability to recognize that or to minimize it because she does still love him led to some unrelenting torture trying to find that warm feeling that came from Maggie's eyes on his. Because she kept doing it, all it did was keep confusing me because though it might mean the same thing to Maggie, it's value to her and to Max by extension, was clearly changing.

  32. I'm personally for the ripping off the band aid too. I've been trying to rationalize that maybe that's just because I'm into monogamy, but these cats really aren't. So I don't know, maybe the band aid rip isn't necessary when they can have the physical fun they were having an ween each other off of the emotional connection.I don't buy what I'm saying at all though, the emotions just naturally come out of the passion of sex, especially when it meant more than the act itself for so long. Max prolonged his suffering by allowing himself to continue being so close to them, like THAT.

  33. John you hit on a good point…we re-enter things during the wedding and honeymoon. Of course that was going to drag up painful memories for Max. I’m sure on a normal day, when he was just hanging with Keely, he wasn’t even thinking about Maggie and his “loss” at all. He was probably just enjoying being with Keely…clearly they have a very fun playful relationship, and a more than OK sex life.

  34. Also Keely is so patient and understanding with him because she understands this particular time was always going to be hard, and it’s probably not something that happens a lot. If it did maybe she would question the relationship more.

  35. This reminded me of another moment in the story, when she is looking at Max and dreaming of what it would have been like being Max's wife. She describes it as “not bad…not bad at all.” This is the definition of a backhanded compliment lol. I would want my wife to describe being with me as something more than “not bad.”

  36. John didn't see this til now, but here's my thoughts:1) I think everything Maggie and Cole do post lodge is a complicated mix. Yes, they probably at some point just want to be together, and on a certain level, “cut Max loose.” So that is selfish. But I think they also care for him and want him to be good with it. So they set him up with Keely, not to get rid of him, but because they think she's a good fit. And she is…everything Max builds with Keely he does on his own, so for me its as real as if he met her randomly on the street.2) If Keely hadn't worked out, if her and Max didn't hit it off…I don't think Cole and Maggie would have just said: “Oh well, we tried Max…but its time you left us alone.” But I don't know what Max does, knowing that those two want to be a couple (honestly he probably knew that for a long time). Maybe he just decides to give them even more space and begin to date on his own…ripping off the band aid himself. Those 6 years are really playing in my head…just a fascinating dynamic at play with all of them.If Keely and Max doesn't work in the future…well I just don't want to think about that. But if you force me, I think Max is more mature and would be able to handle it. I don't think there's any worry there though.

  37. Just seeing the question on Maggie and Cole getting engaged, and how it impacted Max. I think that almost certainly happened after he started dating Keely. Once they saw Max was in love and moving on without them, they probably felt it was OK for them to move forward as well. Though I'm sure it was also hard for Max, like the wedding was. But he had Keely…I bet it drew those two even closer together.

  38. Captain obvious here. Cole and maggie knew they were going to get married at some point. So i wonder how long they waited before telling Max. That he had keely was probably not too much of a factor as max was probably trying to hide his feelings from everyone anyway. Some where max has to give up on his notion that he and maggie will have a future as a married couple. Thats probably when he starts showing affection to keely and spends less time with maggie and cole and more time with just Keely.Correct me if im wrong but Max didnt meet keely in year one but year three i think. So Took probably couple of years for max to date Keely her steady patient approach to max helpes to push the idea that cole and maggie are a couple. That first year with max had to be rough on Keely though. Can you imagine going on a date with someone and having the Marta expeeience every night. “…And this picture here is me and mags hiking up the hill. Heres one of us bike riding at her parents place….”That Keely didnt hang herself is a testament to her character.

  39. John I think I replied to a similar question in the thread, but I can’t find it now lol. But here goes again, my best guess is they didn’t get engaged until after Max and Keely were seriously dating. Did they know they wanted to before that? Probably. But my guess is they didn’t out of respect for Max.KT said at the time of the wedding Max and Keely were dating for about 2 years, and had known each other for a while before that. So I think they probably hung out for a while, just as friends and then began dating seriously. I’m sure Keely got there before Max did, but he clearly decided at a certain point to get serious with her.I also don’t think it was the “Maggie show” while they spent time together. I’m sure it was initially, but I bet it didn’t last a year. Max and Keely seem to have a really fun playful and loving relationship. I bet when they were together he didn’t even mention Maggie much. It’s just when moments like the wedding come up, he can’t help but feel that loss. Probably why Keely is so understanding, as most times she sees the Max who is uttterly devoted and in love with her.

  40. Like I mentioned offhandedly in one of my day late comments, I absolutely loved the moment where Keely, Connor, and Max are all watching the dance. Keely is such a beautiful pillar of strength for Max while also being lighthearted. Her laying into Connor for the umpteenth time about fucking up Max's engagement surprise was such an awesome comic relief moment to how heavy the dance and it's implications were.

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